Newsvine
  • Welcome
  • Help
  • Report Bug
  • Conversation Tracker
  • Your Column
  • Replies
  • Friends
Type Comments Since You Last CheckedArticle Source Last Checked Stop Tracking All Clear Tracking All
Advertise | AdChoices
Log In | Register
Close the Login Panel
Existing users log in below. New users please register for a free account.

New Users:

Existing Users:

E-Mail:
Password:
Forgot Password?
Please enter the e-mail address or domain name you registered with:
E-Mail/Domain:
Back to Login
Log Out
  • Top News
  • Local News
  • World
  • U.S.
  • Sports
  • Politics
  • Tech
  • Entertainment
  • Science
  • Business
  • Health
  • Odd News
  • More
    • Arts
    • Education
    • Environment
    • Fashion
    • History
    • Home & Garden
    • Not News
    • Religion
    • Travel
Visit Bart Gruzalski's column >>

BART GRUZALSKI

We need both inner awareness (spirituality) and outer activism (spirituality in action)
Articles Posted: 6  Links Seeded: 93
Member Since: 1/2012  Last Seen: 5/19/2012

What is Newsvine?

Updated continuously by citizens like you, Newsvine is an instant reflection of what the world is talking about at any given moment.

Get a Free Account
Help
Fun Stuff
  • Your Clippings
  • Leaderboard
  • E-Mail Alerts
  • Top of the Vine
  • Newsvine Live
  • Newsvine Archives
  • The Greenhouse
  • Recommended Articles
  • Wall of Vineness
Put a Seed Newsvine link on your own site

The Black Bloc That Causes Violence Within OWS Demonstrations is, whether intentionally or not, doing what the 1% welcomes and is, very effectively, doing the work of Agent Provocateurs

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:17 AM EST
us-news
By Bart Gruzalski
Advertise | AdChoices

The title of this short article is to be read exactly as it is written: the question is whether the black bloc are working as Provocateurs, not whether they are provocateurs.  That's the question.  In an interview with Chris Hedges, a lot of points came up which I'll comment on and then share with the Newsvine community.  CH stands for Chris Hedges, JAM for J.A. Myerson who is doing this interview for Truthout:

The problem is they're not tactics I would engage in. I wouldn't classify them as "violent." I would classify violence as the destruction of property and vandalism, the shouting of insulting messages to the police, physical confrontations with the police. Those are very clear cut acts of violence. The issues that you raise are more nebulous and circumstantial. Throwing a tear-gas canister back that's been fired at you I would not classify as a violent act and yet it was something that probably would not have been done during the civil rights movement under King.

JAM: I think he might have thought of that as violent.

CH: I don't know that he would have thought of it as violent. He wouldn't resist arrest. I know that's an issue. When I've been arrested, I don't resist arrest. Many people do resist arrest. King never did resist arrest. But I prefaced it by saying that it's not something I would do. On the other hand, those are more nebulous issues, which may be part of black bloc activity, but let's be careful. Black bloc activity includes other things that are clearly defined as acts of violence. They don't limit it to those activities is what I'm saying.

In these two paragraphs the BB (for Black Bloc) is obviously willing to do acts that would be considered violent by Martin Luther King AND, though no one mentions this, by Mahatma Gandhi.  I am willing to discuss this point in the comment section, but I'm in a very busy period and may not come back to this for several days. The importance of nonviolence is a key point in the interview with CH.

The next point is slightly ironical but, more importantly, exposes the "agent provocateur" aspect of BH operations:

JAM: [You have written:] "The Black Bloc movement bears the rigidity and dogmatism of all absolutism sects. Its adherents alone possess the truth. They alone understand. They alone arrogate the right, because they are enlightened and we are not, to dismiss and ignore competing points of view as infantile and irrelevant. They hear only their own voices. They heed only their own thoughts. They believe only their own clichés. And this makes them not only deeply intolerant but stupid." How did you arrive at the conclusions that they're rigidly dogmatic and dismissive of all other points of view?

CH: From listening to anarchist radio and reading anarchist web sites.

and now to the other main theme from my perspective:

JAM: You write, "The Occupy encampments in various cities were shut down precisely because they were nonviolent." I think I get the point, but I wonder if you'd game that out, because it seems to insinuate that, had camps been violent, they would not have been shut down.

CH: That's a pretty broad leap. They were shut down because they articulated the concerns and anger and frustrations of the mainstream. This is a mainstream movement. Any time you went to Zuccotti Park on a Saturday, it was filled with strollers from mothers and fathers from New Jersey. And the movement spread and resonated. There has been an extremely concerted effort to destroy it, first by physically removing their centers of operation and now attempting to create internal divisions within the movement, using black bloc activity to discredit the movement, attempting to set up front organizations like Van Jones to channel the energy back into the Democratic Party and electoral politics. I think these movements really terrify the power elite and, in particular, the Democrats. One could argue that the greatest enemy of the Occupy movement is Barack Obama. I don't want to see the movement destroyed. We cannot underestimate, in this security and surveillance state, the extent to which there are internal forces within this movement seeking to rip it apart. The black bloc is a gift to their hands.

 

So here we have the BB, undermining OWS, destroying the very movement that has brought equality and fairness back into political conversation.  These BB activities would be seen as extremely successful activities if performed by agent provocateurs working for the government or privately for someone or some group supporting the 1%.  What does CH think is the only way out?

JAM: What then is the solution to the problem? What is the prognosis for the cancer?

CH: There has to be a rigid adherence to nonviolence. That does not mean that the black bloc can't exist. We saw a multiplicity of groups in the 1960s - from the Yippies to the Panthers to the Weather Underground - but the movement itself has to continue to operate in a way that it does not alienate the mainstream. If the security and surveillance state is able to alienate the mainstream from OWS, then OWS will be far more vulnerable to being destroyed. That's very similar to the civil rights movement. I'm a huge admirer of Malcolm X. And, yet, the establishment didn't really fear Malcolm X; they feared King. That's true here. They fear OWS. They don't fear the black bloc.

A very interesting perception.  No one in the 1% fears the BB.  The BB only diminishes the message of the OWS movement, it actually is an excuse for more repressive laws to control the behavior of citizens.  The BB, whether intentionally or not, is an effective tool of the 1%.  And I'm confident that some in the BB are on payrolls.

It's for this reason--the importance of nonviolence--that I created the group "Nonviolence creates Progress."  I would have preferred just "Nonviolence" but that name and a few other group names had been taken and so I had to settle for the longer title.  Please join the group if you find such things of import or at least of interest. Please also be my vine friend if you find this article interesting, even if you disagree wholeheartedly.

Finally, please comment AND vote this article up the vine.  Thank you.

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Back To Top | Front Page

Published to:

  • Bart Gruzalski's Column, All of Newsvine
  • Groups: 112th United States Congress, American Progressives, American_Politics, Bar Room Debates, Centervine, Corporate Watchdogs, DemGuys, Democrats, EconVine, Election 2012, FIRED UP DEMOCRATS!, Free Thinkers, Get On Your Soapbox, Grey Boomers, Unite!, Gut Check America, LaborVine, Living with Less, Nonviolence creates progress, OWS Consolidarity, Proud Liberal and Progressive, Rational Progressive Party, Seeders and Posters w/ Manners, The Great American ReEducation, US News and Views , V.O.I.C.E. in America, We Must Change, World News 1, WTF?
  • Regions: none
  • Public Discussion (37)
Bart GruzalskiDeleted
Bart GruzalskiDeleted
bestquest

expected naval ensign as agent prov, Kent State, but pleased that is not the case here.

  • 1 vote
Reply#3 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:05 AM EST
Bart GruzalskiDeleted
Reply
hugh b

interesting post

social engagement requires evolution, as tactics such as non-violent protests are developed new strategies are created to fight them

so what is at our disposal to counter the new strategies, where do the divisions develop, how do we sustain the cause for democracy when the opponents have so much control over our lives

what has happened, the conservative agenda, has been going on for at least 40 years

after the rude awakening of the counter culture movement of the 1960s, the guardians of the core conservative agenda have been manipulating society and making all of us dependent on them

them is big corporations, big oil, the Military Industrial Complex, et al the Oligarchs

the energy required to break the surly bonds of this evil, is something at least 50% of this country's citizens have no stomach for...they don't see the evil they are subject to...all they want are their TVs, cars, and what they consider peace...

  • 2 votes
Reply#4 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:19 AM EST
lincoln-1979

I was a part of Black Bloc on the west coast in the late 90's. All true anarchists in the movement are pacifists, and do not tolerate violence and destruction, we believed that violence and force was a characteristic, and a mechanism inherent to the State, and could only be countered by non-violence.

Although there are some within the movement who are generally vandals and are destructive, they are only a small minority and should not reflect the hundreds upon hundreds of non-violent Anarchists within the Black Bloc movement.

Today, Black Bloc in diseased by Agent Provocateurs, most are Cops, Feds disguised as Anarchists. They are planted to discount the legitimacy of the movement, or any popular grass roots movement.

When we would discover an agent, we would point him out, yell to others to ridicule and shame them, and they (the Agent) often would just run over to the police barriers and would be escorted by uniformed police from the location.

Here is a video of Agent Provocateurs in action:

Police agents discovered at Black Bloc in Canada. SEE HERE

  • 6 votes
Reply#5 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:12 PM EST
lincoln-1979

I recommend anyone inciting violence at OWS be shunned and banished. Power in numbers, they will leave, but may try to sneak back in. Be observant, remember faces, if they return, shun them, let them know you know who they are and what they are trying to do, most likely they will leave after they are exposed.

A few tips on identifying an Agent Provocateur:

1) Anyone wearing ALL BRAND NEW materials: BLACK BOOTS, JEANS AND OR BANDANNAS. Most likely they will appear rather uncomfortable because it is not their regular attire like authentic BB Anarchists.

2) Provocateurs come in small groups, they are never alone, at least not that I have seen. A small group of 3 or 4 guys wearing ALL new BLACK attire are most likely not BB. Keep watch, many times they have a radio attached to the collar of their jacket. If you see them pulling their collar to their mouths and talking, they are Agents. Shun them.

3) Agents always have a fire arm, or a retractable baton just in case something goes down. The weapon are usually tucked in the rear of their pants and they will make some effort to keep it hidden. Usually a low hanging back pack, or a shirt tied around their waist suffices. Keep a close eye, when they move around try to see if there is a weapon present, if there is, bring attention to it. This is a peaceful protest, no weapons allowed. Notify police, Agents are usually transported away without hand cuffs, without being frisked or jerked around.

4) Agents have identification on them, a badge of some sort. Sometimes an Agent will flash his badge to other Uniformed police to let them know he is one of them. Many times after an Agent has incited violence, he will run towards Police barricades, rather than away form them, and will flash them his badge. The Police will then allow the Agent to cross over the line. Police do not allow non-police to cross certain lines during protesting.

  • 6 votes
#5.1 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:41 PM EST
truthlover

lincoln-1979, your video is only evidence of what Bart posted. Where is Bart? Hope he'll come line soon.

That's a GREAT VIDEO. Rex deserves a solid reply. I'll wait for Bart to do it and if it's not done by Monday, I'm ready to take on this rubbish passing for an argument.

  • 4 votes
#5.2 - Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:34 PM EST
Bart GruzalskiDeleted
Reply
jrone

This is confusing. Is the black bloc a group of people within ows? Or a group of Negroes within ows? What?

    Reply#6 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:10 PM EST
    TiG.

    Google black bloc ... there is plenty of info on this tactic. No need to explain in a post.

    • 4 votes
    #6.1 - Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:19 PM EST
    Reply
    mountainfirefall

    The base understanding for my line of thinking is simple.

    Many here wish to discuss the aforementioned 'violence' by 'black bloc'.

    No on wishes to discuss the states covert behaviors.

    no on wishes to discuss the violence of the state on those who live in poverty.

    but, you do wish to cast anatoly into a negative light.

    and as confounding as it may seem... as intellectuals, you wish to call him 'uppity'?

    soul searching before responding is also useful. just a suggestion, of course.

    and direct responses are useful when you can one:)

      Reply#7 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:29 PM EST
      lincoln-1979

      From my essay "My call to Humanity"-

      "War is a great divider of people and nations. Its fruits are those of hate, ignorance and destruction. Imagine bombs falling on the suburbs of America, imagine foreign troops storming your house, pulling you out of bed in the middle of the night, children screaming, fathers detained for nothing. Imagine the terror, the tears in the eyes of children as their loved ones are blown to bits; imagine the psychological devastation upon the minds of the young, the downtrodden and the displaced. Think for one second, your child screaming with shrapnel sticking out of his or her body; imagine losing friends, relatives and neighbors to the hands of a foreign military occupying your home and country. What would it take before you began to fight off your oppressor? And when you chose to fight back, would it be just to call you a terrorist? A militant? An insurgent? Is this justice? I argue no. For, if this war on terror is merely getting even for the events of September 11th, we have delivered the innocent people of distant lands nearly 300 of their own 9-11’s."

      More often than not, humans that are starving and or homeless are blamed directly for their plight, without any attention to the countless events that eventually culminated to their present state of suffering. True, many refuse to even attempt to better themselves, but more often than not; there is some outside force external to their own faculties that are deliberately oppressing them. This, my friends, is no doubt a state of slavery.

      {11}One may ask; to what benefit would it be to deliberately starve and or displace anyone? This question is no doubt a legitimate one, for, to the average person, who has in their possession, at least some amount of sympathy, cannot even fathom why one would wish for anyone to starve or to be dislodged from their home. In fact, the type of mind that would allow this, or even further, the type of mind that would set into action the machinery to manufacture this type of fate for any living being, is no less than psychopathic and narcissistic. In a word, it is the working mind of a murderer.

      {12}A murderer? You may ask. I say yes, a murderer. For history shows us to the lengths which governments and corporations will go to obtain power and wealth. In fact, there is not any atrocity they will not commit to generate wealth, which always translates to power. Furthermore, I will take this logic even further, and I will call anyone who has in their possession amounts of wealth that they will never be able to use in their lifetimes a murderer. I cannot understand how one person can amass billions upon billions of dollars while millions upon millions starve in the streets of the world, where children work diamond mines 16 hours a day for a bowl of rice, a world where shanty towns are the new suburbs. I cannot fathom having such great wealth and letting it waste while billions starve, while working men and women are kicked into the streets to shiver in dark alleys, while war veterans waste away from Agent Orange and depleted uranium. I will never understand a mind that will dedicate its whole existence to obtaining wealth and never sharing it with the world that created the wealth for them in the first place. This too, in my mind, is murder.

      {13}And now I expect the reader to ask, well if someone earns billions of dollars, why can’t they do as they please with it? I will immediately call your bluff; you say this person earned this wealth? I ask “how exactly has he or she earned it?” By enslaving third world countries? By erecting puppet governments that allow for the pillage and plundering of resources? Maybe this person owns a particular shoe company which is worth tens of billions of dollars, and yet this same person pays the average employee 24 cents per hour. Is this an honest way of earning money? I think not. Is this admirable? I say to the psychopath it is business as usual. To further drive my point to its destination, I will ask, where do all of our resources come from? Do they not come from the earth? Is it upright and just for one to stake a claim for himself a monopoly upon resources that were put here millions of years ago by nature for all of us? All I ask is for the honesty of the wealthy; all I ask is for them to be ethical, to be human. I have no problems with a man obsessed with money, but I do have a problem with one who puts the lust of material wealth before the basic needs of the living. If one is blessed with great business skills and wealth, I believe one should be inclined to share the vast surplus to benefit all of humanity, not just for him or herself or only to the class to which one belongs. I demand that the wealthy be ethical, nothing more."

      Yes, I am willing to talk about it.

      Link

        #7.1 - Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:42 PM EST
        mountainfirefall

        I appreciate the response.... of sorts.

        I too appreciate the absence of my point... it is telling.

        But, for the sake of meeting I will ask....

        when does the comfort of those who have time to ponder such things translate to the defense, after such time has passed, of those who continue to be murdered. When do those who judge a response to violence, with a moral violence, stop judging how i defend myself in a revolution that STILL denies me not only leadership, but entry?

        I will not go quietly, do not expect me too.

        I will point the finger at those who 'sympathize' from a safe distance.

        Stand with me... as i fight for my life and those who live with me here in poverty... or get the @!$%# out of my way... but, most importantly, and I say this from the heart...

        stop protecting the potential you've been promised by the elite... and see how you are used in your 'peaceful' propaganda.

        lives have been depending on it for ever.

        • 1 vote
        #7.2 - Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:03 PM EST
        lincoln-1979

        Stand with me... as i fight for my life and those who live with me here in poverty... or get the @!$%# out of my way...

        I am not stopping you from doing anything. Your misplacing your frustrations, I have no authority over you.

        stop protecting the potential you've been promised by the elite... and see how you are used in your 'peaceful' propaganda.

        If I believe in peace, I must live in peace. It is the way I have chosen to live my life. I have been the vandal, I have been homeless, I have robbed and hurt others in order to survive. I have been the addict, I have had friends die too early.

        I know pain. I know struggle. I know what it is like to go without food, shivering on a park bench. Life is hard for everyone on this planet.

        I have 2 kids to raise, I have a mentally ill mom to take care of, I work hard to provide for my family, my friends, and those who need help.

        I am a hip hop artist. The last 15 years I have dedicated my life to putting my struggles, the struggles of Humanity, of civilization into words for people to hear and hopefully understand.

        My group "Vagabonds" tours regionally. We do many benefit shows, "Food Not Bombs", "Books for Prisoners", we have started working with the ZULU Nation and the Walter Payton foundation. We have a large benefit show coming March 3rd in Indiana, all proceeds will go to people who are struggling. We accept canned goods for homeless shelters at most venues, all goods go to battered women's shelters and Rescue Missions.

        That is not all, but I will stop there.

        We try our best to help people.

        We are building, not destroying.

        This is the path that I have sought, Peace.

        I have seen the impact.

        I wish you the best in your fight.

        Again, Be well.

        Peace.

        • 2 votes
        #7.3 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:18 AM EST
        mountainfirefall

        the nation, such as it is, has room for you and more like you. the nation such as it is, also has room for me, an people like, me.

        I do not tell you that what you do fills a gap that is never filled... I simply admire the work to help others meet day to day.

        do not tell me that what i do has no value, is violent, and must be stopped. I work to stop a violence visited on our commujnity for centuries... no amount of peace has changed it.... give what one gets and sometimes the getting stops as well... as least one must try.

        poverty has been industrialized... people live off of this community, and they must be held accountable.

        it is my thought, do what you do... judge not what others do when blood just keeps on runnin.

        ... people climb onto their own jets, fly to washington, and pay for legislation that builds for profits prisons to put my community in... NO MORE. you do what you do, an I'll do what I do an we agree not to judge the value of those things as this nightmare plays on.

        • 1 vote
        #7.4 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:55 PM EST
        lincoln-1979

        I can understand your point of view.

        Again, I wish you the best in life, in your fight.

        There is a lot of work to be done.

        Peace.

        PS: Have you ever read "End Game" Vol. 1&2 By: Derrick Jensen? Here is a link to a lecture by him.

        I think he is right up your alley.

          #7.5 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:31 AM EST
          Reply
          TiG.

          Bart

          What is with the deletions of your own posts ... and subsequently the posts such as mine that were part of the thread you started?

          • 4 votes
          Reply#8 - Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:29 PM EST
          lincoln-1979

          Welcome back bart!

          I am confused about this thread too.

          At any rate, peace!

            Reply#9 - Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:08 AM EST
            Leave a Comment:
            You're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead.
            You're in XHTML Mode. If you prefer, you can use Easy Mode instead.
            (XHTML tags allowed - a,b,blockquote,br,code,dd,dl,dt,del,em,h2,h3,h4,i,ins,li,ol,p,pre,q,strong,ul)
            Newsvine Privacy Statement
            As a new user, you may notice a few temporary content restrictions. Click here for more info.
            FUN STUFF:
            • Leaderboard |
            • E-Mail Alerts |
            • Top of the Vine |
            • Newsvine Live |
            • Newsvine Archives |
            • The Greenhouse |
            COMPANY STUFF:
            • Code of Honor |
            • Company Info |
            • Contact Us |
            • Jobs |
            • User Agreement |
            • Privacy Policy |
            • About our ads
            LEGAL STUFF:
            • © 2005-2012 Newsvine, Inc. |
            • Newsvine® is a registered trademark of Newsvine, Inc. |
            • Newsvine is a property of msnbc.com